Arugas Habosem-Taub

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Arugas Habosem-Taub

Postby Gabbe » Wed Apr 06, 2011 3:29 pm

Does anyone know anything about this shul? From what I understand it is "chassidish", but what exactly that means, I don't know.
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Re: Arugas Habosem-Taub

Postby Zek » Wed Apr 06, 2011 7:54 pm

never heard of it
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Re: Arugas Habosem-Taub

Postby Warren » Thu Apr 07, 2011 9:29 am

Apparently R' Taub is Satmar. Other than going there a couple times to learn when I was a kid, I don't know much about it.
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Re: Arugas Habosem-Taub

Postby shulgoer » Thu Apr 07, 2011 10:54 am

I was last there like 5 years ago.
At the time, they started around 915am, davened nusasch sephard very fast with very thick accents (pronounced ooo as eee, etc) Nobody talked to me.
I don't know if they still do, but I heard at one time they had a Friday night minyan that started mincha and kabbalas shabbos well after sunset.
There are lots of big signs there that most (if not all) forms of makeup for women are assur.
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Re: Arugas Habosem-Taub

Postby Warren » Thu Apr 07, 2011 11:05 am

Oh, they have a mikva there too, Gabbe. Just in case you want to take a morning swim.
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Re: Arugas Habosem-Taub

Postby Doughnut » Thu Apr 07, 2011 11:13 am

shulgoer wrote:I was last there like 5 years ago.
At the time, they started around 915am, davened nusasch sephard very fast with very thick accents (pronounced ooo as eee, etc) Nobody talked to me.
I don't know if they still do, but I heard at one time they had a Friday night minyan that started mincha and kabbalas shabbos well after sunset.
There are lots of big signs there that most (if not all) forms of makeup for women are assur.

Yeah, I've been told that this extremely late davening is a Rabbeinu Tam zman.
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Re: Arugas Habosem-Taub

Postby Gabbe » Thu Apr 07, 2011 11:55 am

shulgoer wrote:I was last there like 5 years ago.
At the time, they started around 915am, davened nusasch sephard very fast with very thick accents (pronounced ooo as eee, etc) Nobody talked to me.
I don't know if they still do, but I heard at one time they had a Friday night minyan that started mincha and kabbalas shabbos well after sunset.
There are lots of big signs there that most (if not all) forms of makeup for women are assur.

Misogyny doesn't really bother me.
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Re: Arugas Habosem-Taub

Postby Gabbe » Thu Apr 07, 2011 11:58 am

Doughnut wrote:Yeah, I've been told that this extremely late davening is a Rabbeinu Tam zman.

I find it interesting that it bothers people when Mincha is late, but it is pretty common practice to daven maariv (with krias shema) early. During the summer it gets really hard to find a late Kabbolas Shabbos.
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Re: Arugas Habosem-Taub

Postby Doughnut » Thu Apr 07, 2011 12:35 pm

My understanding is that davening mincha before plag and maariv after is not a problem.
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Re: Arugas Habosem-Taub

Postby Gabbe » Thu Apr 07, 2011 12:57 pm

Doughnut wrote:My understanding is that davening mincha before plag and maariv after is not a problem.

It's not in theory, but there are minor details like what to do with Krias Shema and the brachos. My understanding is that what we do now (i.e. davening maariv normally and repeating krias shema) does not work according to some opinions.
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Re: Arugas Habosem-Taub

Postby Gabbe » Thu Apr 07, 2011 1:10 pm

One of the things I like about the ultrahassidic minyanim is that they don't give a crap about leining. They'll read it as if it's a newspaper. I'm beginning to find most baalei kria insufferable. I have one in particular in mind who will repeat a phrase if he messes up the trope.
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Re: Arugas Habosem-Taub

Postby Doughnut » Thu Apr 07, 2011 1:39 pm

Gabbe wrote:One of the things I like about the ultrahassidic minyanim is that they don't give a crap about leining. They'll read it as if it's a newspaper. I'm beginning to find most baalei kria insufferable. I have one in particular in mind who will repeat a phrase if he messes up the trope.

Hmm.

About davening at the right times, I agree davening mincha after plag and maarive before shkiyah would sound like a problem. Are there any opinions that is ok? In any case, davening mincha before plag and maariv after is fine according to mainstream halach as far as I know. Is there any opinion that says davening mincha after shkiyah is ok?
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Re: Arugas Habosem-Taub

Postby Gabbe » Thu Apr 07, 2011 2:07 pm

I'm sure someone else here can give you more definitive answers, but my impression is like this:

mincha before plag, then maariv after plag (this is according to everybody, but almost everybody also holds you have to wait until after tzeis to say K'Sh, so the problem is what to do with the pre-plag krias shema.)

mincha after plag, maariv after shkia.

As far as mincha after shkia goes, there is such a thing as the beginning of shkia and the end of shkia. Also, there is the opinion of Rabenu Tam that there are 2 shkias. So it is possible that the time for mincha goes on for some time after the time printed on myzmanim.org and chabad.

There is also an opinion in the first Tosafos in Brachos that the time for krias shema is somewhat before tzeis, so it is possible that you can daven mincha after plag but maariv with K"Sh before tzeis.
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Re: Arugas Habosem-Taub

Postby Doughnut » Thu Apr 07, 2011 2:27 pm

Other than rabbeinu tam, who holds that "shkiyah" is not sunset (or at least very close to it)?

How would you daven maariv without krias shema? Just skip it? I'm not following what that opinion is exactly. Just daven maariv and repeat shema later. What's so hard about that?
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Re: Arugas Habosem-Taub

Postby Gabbe » Thu Apr 07, 2011 3:29 pm

Doughnut wrote:Other than rabbeinu tam, who holds that "shkiyah" is not sunset (or at least very close to it)?

I think it's given as a fact that shekiyah has a begining and an end.
See here, s. 2 where it seems shkiyah is almost an hour long (probably depending on location)
http://hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?re ... &pgnum=206
I couldn't find this in English.

That means that if candlelighting is say 7:15, you have till almost 8:30. (Depending on location.)

How would you daven maariv without krias shema? Just skip it? I'm not following what that opinion is exactly. Just daven maariv and repeat shema later. What's so hard about that?
Just Shemoneh Esrei.
I think the problem is that the brachos refer to Shema, and how can you say them if you're not being yotze krias shema.
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Re: Arugas Habosem-Taub

Postby shulgoer » Thu Apr 07, 2011 4:03 pm

It doesn't make sense to me to daven mincha on Friday after sunset when you are already observing Shabbos.
If you agree that Shabbos has started and you can't do melacha, then you are saying that it is no longer Friday so how can you daven mincha?
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Re: Arugas Habosem-Taub

Postby Gabbe » Thu Apr 07, 2011 4:07 pm

shulgoer wrote:It doesn't make sense to me to daven mincha on Friday after sunset when you are already observing Shabbos.
If you agree that Shabbos has started and you can't do melacha, then you are saying that it is no longer Friday so how can you daven mincha?

Shabbos=De'Oraysa
Mincha=D'Rabbanan

If you can daven a weekday maariv after plag hamincha on shabbos (and say havdalah!) why can't it work the other way too?
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Re: Arugas Habosem-Taub

Postby Doughnut » Thu Apr 07, 2011 4:09 pm

http://kehillatisrael.net/hcal/zmanim.html

I just read this and my head is spinning. What I take from it, though, is that only according to Rabbeinu Tam opinions is davening mincha after sunset (conventional "shkiyah") permitted. It seems like the S"A you quoted is based on Rabbeinu Tam.
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Re: Arugas Habosem-Taub

Postby Gabbe » Thu Apr 07, 2011 4:16 pm

Doughnut wrote:http://kehillatisrael.net/hcal/zmanim.html

I just read this and my head is spinning. What I take from it, though, is that only according to Rabbeinu Tam opinions is davening mincha after sunset (conventional "shkiyah") permitted. It seems like the S"A you quoted is based on Rabbeinu Tam.

However, Rabbeinu Tam's position also carries much support, as it is actually the view of many other rishonim as well, up to and including the Shulchan Arukh (Orach Chaim 261:2) and the Rama (see also Magen Avraham, 331:2, and Responsa Chatam Sofer, O.C. 80.).

This article cut out many names. For example, the Shulchan Aruch of a Certain Sect also rules like the Vilna Gaon.
http://he.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D7%A9%D7% ... 7%9E%D7%94
Many additional Rishonim agree (with Rabbenu Tam), such as Ramban, Rashba, and Yereim
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Re: Arugas Habosem-Taub

Postby Gabbe » Mon May 16, 2011 6:21 pm

So since starting this thread I've davened there. It's pretty unremarkable, just another shteible run by another Rebbele. I might be more conditioned to it than most people in Baltimore because this kind of shul is fairly common where I grew up. The fact that they shlep out Psukei DiZimra is a major advantage to me -I could show up at 9:40 and not be late. The only thing that might be slightly noteworthy is that they don't seem to have this stupid obsession with Shishi. Also, the bathrooms are gross.
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